December 27, 2006

Spirits On Trial

(Note: this is all based off of a pamphlet written by Ben Williams)
In Salem, Massachusetts in 1692, "it appeared that some people had evil spirits possessing them." Many people were killed because they looked different or weren't like everyone else, because it was believed that these people were possessed. During those five moths, 20 people were executed for "witchcraft." Were they really possessed? You are soon to find out.
This is kind of a big thing. Some of you won't agree with all of this, and will try your hardest to come up with the perfect argument. Well, there is no perfect argument. It won't do you or me any good, so just read on. I'm not saying 'don't argue', I'm saying,'keep in mind that it probably won't do us any good.' and 'there is no perfect argument'. I know you won't agree (some of you), but this is about what I believe, so here you go.
"Try the Spirits"
1 John 4:1
"Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world."
This means that we should test the things that our teachers, (prophets) and preachers teach us.
We must test the word "Spirit".
Spirit and ghost
The word "ghost" comes from the old German word "giest". The dictionary gives this description for the word ghost:
"... the disembodied spirit of a dead person imagined as wandering among, or haunting, living persons..."
When you were younger, weren't you scared of the unknown? You thought that there was something there coming after you, and you called it a ghost. It really wasn't there, but you thought it was. This is what you imagine when you think of ghost. An invisible being floating around haunting people. It's known as a 'dead person who really isn't dead'.
Now we look at the word Spirit. Let's test what our preachers taught us. Let's make a good judgment and look at things for ourselves.
The meaning of the word "spirit"
The English word "spirit" is translated from the Hebrew Old Testament word "Ruwach" (roo'akh). Also, the Greek New Scriptures, the word is "Pneuma" (pa-nyew'-mah). Both of these mean "Air in motion". Air in motion causes things to move, and think about it, what causes US to move? A wind that drives us to move, that would be our spirit. Yes, not a 'ghost' inside of us that will live when we die, but our spirit. e.g. the spirit of fear, the spirit truth, spirit of God, humble spirit, spirit of grace...
So do you believe in ghosts?
If you do, then re-explain what it is that I just said.
'Wind in motion'. You can't see that, only what it does. You can't see our spirits, only what they do.
Man kind have wild imaginations. If there is something unknown, we tend to let our minds wander. We come up with crazy stuff. Like ghosts... (want to know more, read about it yourself)
Things that we can't see, things like gravity, electricity, all makes us wander. We can't see wind, does this mean that it's a "ghost?" "A person who is dead, but not really dead?"

Conclusion:
No ghosts, your spirit is what drives you to do things, not a floating thing that haunts people.
The holy spirit is God's tool to motivate and drive you to do good. You pray "Lord, bring 'so-and-so' your holy spirit" Do you know what you're asking when you say that? Well, maybe now you do.

Ben Williams wrote about all this is his pamphlet "Spirits on Trail" (which this is based off of), if you want to know more, then you can get one of those pamphlets. Question everything that your preachers tell you, you don't know where they learned that. It' s much easier to just listen and believe everything, but is that what God wants?
Comments welcome. So go ahead, start arguing.

Jo




30 comments:

Austin said...

I'm sorry to disappoint you, but I actually agree with most of what you said. A spirit is not a ghost.

I know what "spirit" means. Actually, in English, its root "spir" can also be found in respiration. Interesting...

Spirit literally means "breath".

I do have some questions for you though. Please answer these:

1. What can a spirit do?

2. Can a spirit only exist in a person?

3. Does a spirit hold any of a person's attributes, or are those exclusively in the body?

4. What characteristics does the Bible give to spirits?

Please answer these for me in your own words.

Austin said...

I have a correction to make (on you):

Neither ruach nor pneuma applies to just any old air in motion. It must be breath.

The wind is not ruach or pneuma, but my breath is both.

It's okay to think of spirit as "air that moves you" as long as you remember that it refers exclusively to BREATH! In other words, spirit means your life, your breath.

Austin said...

You said on Daisy's blog that you expected me to argue with you. Why would you say that? Here is something I posted back in October on this subject. It was in the comments of my post "Socrates":


Most people think of a "soul" as some special life-force that contains the essence of "us" - they say that this is immortal, and that when our bodies die, our soul lives on. I think that the concept of an "immortal soul" originated primarily in Greek thought. The Jews believed that when you died you were dead, unless you were resurrected.


Doesn't that sound like, on some level, I agree with what you are saying in your post about spirits?

Austin said...

Jo,

I googled "Ben Williams" but that name is so common that I can't find any of his writing online. Could you tell me something about him that might help me in my search? Maybe you could give me the name of an organization he works for or something.

Anonymous said...

Jo,

Agree..most of the way. Ghosts are superstition when used in replacement of "spirit." We are spirits. Right now I'm confused on why the Bible in the King James Version calls "The holy spirit" "The holy ghost."
Anyway, I do not, although, believe you can use the dictionary on anything like this. When the dictionary explaines what a ghost is, I'm sure they are not thinking of what we are talking about.
When we are dead, our ghost is not going to go around huanting people. We go to wherever we go when we die. But, yet, when we are in heaven we are not called "ghosts'" but "spirits."

Some believe that "when our body is gone, it lets our spirits out of our bodies. So, we are not ghosts, but spirits."
Most of us probably don't know what we should call it. But some of us are right, and some of us are wrong. But in the end we'll all know for sure.

Ausin,
I wan't to do that thing you gave Jo..

1. What can a spirit do?
Depends on what kind of spirit your talking about...a humans spirit? Well... Depends on what you mean on "What spirits can do."
I don't believe they can pass through walls, and they can't do really anything different from when they where a Pirson.

2. Can a spirit only exist in a pirson?
No. Angels are spirits because we can not see them. Everything is spirit up in heaven. Jesus, God, the Angels, and every singgle used-to-be human being, in Heaven.

3. Does a spirit hold and of a person's attributes, or are those exclusively in the body?
Explain "attributes."

4. What characteristics does the bible give to spirits?
Gloreous...Beautiful "Spirit bodies." Inteligent, and Joyful.

Austin said...

Daisy,

Where did you get that understanding of the word spirit? Did you get it from reading how the Bible uses the word spirit, or from how people in our culture tend to use it?

Jo,

I've decided that I can't properly explain my opinion on this matter without dedicating a whole post to it. So I've posted a new post with my opinion. We can talk about this here and there.

sunny_12 said...

Austin,
Thanks for all the comments. (Wow, how can you find so much to say?!)
I knew you would agree with some of this, but there is always somewhere where you believe different (not just you, but everyone.) I knew that you would write out a correction, and wouldn't agree 100%.Was I right?
Interesting, what you had to say. Like I said, I'm going off of Ben Williams. my study doesn't have to be over yet.
Oh, and it doesn't disappoint me that you agree, it's a relief. You can sometimes come up with things that it's hard to argue with, so sometimes it takes me awhile to come up with an answer.
Do you have proof that spirit literally means "breath"? Not that it's much of a difference, but i want to know.
____________________________________
1.Q) what can a spirit do?
A) A spirit can cause you to act a certain way. Like if two people are arguing, one of them is trying to act in the holy spirit, one is angry. They are trying to prove their side, but one is trying to do what God wants. It causes this person to act differently then the other person. (Trying to word this as best as I can. Is it working?)

2. Q)Can a spirit only exist in a person?
A. This is a hard one. Well, I guess not. Something else can feel scared, like my rabbit who is loose in the yard right now!
Do I need to say more?
3.Q)Does a spirit hold any of a person's attributes, or are those exclusively in the body?
A. i don't really get this one. Can you word it differently? I sorta understand, but I would like it if you could word it differently.
4.Q)What characteristics does the Bible give to spirits?
A. That really depends on which spirit. If it's the holy spirit, then it is good, if it's an evil spirit, then it's not so good.

I for some reason can't find any scriptures for you right now, but I will find some for you.
____________________________________

For your next comments...

Ok, for your correction:
Can you provide proof of this? Not that I completely disagree, but according to what i read, it's "Air in Motion".

Next comment...
Are you upset that i thought you might disagree? I don't know what you believe, and I didn't read your post on "Socrates". I'm glad that for the most part, you agree.

Next comment...
Try to google
American Christian Ministries
and then you can find Ben Williams.
He use to write most of their articles, and my mom use to receive them. I don't know if he still write articles, but I'm assuming he does.


Jo


P.s. Why did you say,"Please answer these for me in your own words."?
Did you thing that I was going to write out a part of the pamphlet for you?
P.p.s. Do you have spell check on your computer? (don't ask)

sunny_12 said...

Austin, are we on at the same time, because that wasn't there before.
You tend to do that to me a lot.

sunny_12 said...

Sorry Austin,
I went and read your post about spirits, but it wouldn't let me comment.
If you read the thing about spirits by Ben Williams, then tell me what YOU think. I thought it was good. It helped me to understand about spirits a whole lot better!

Austin said...

You seem to think that a spirit is a feeling or driving force or something, but that is an extremely rare use of the word spirit. "spirit of happiness" is not the way we normally talk about "spirit".

Google ruach and pneuma and you will see that they mean "breath".

Also, since "God is spirit" (John 4:24), do you think that God is just a feeling or force that a living being experiences? I don't think so. Spirit has to do with life itself, not someone's feelings or drives.

Austin said...

Pneuma means breath or wind. If you're talking about a person, it always refers to their breath. The pneuma of someone is their breath.

The pneuma of God is God's breath. I explained in my post Spirit: Neither a Ghost Nor Just a Feeling that breath, to the Hebrews, represents life itself. Breath is what separates the living from the dead. If a body does not have this breath, then the body is dead.

That's what a spirit really is. It's what makes you alive, rather than just a dead body. God has his own Spirit (in fact, he IS spirit), just like we have our own.

Austin said...

Oh yeah, I forgot.

Therefore, the Holy Spirit is not just a feeling or force that drives a person to do the right thing (it does that, but that's not what it is). The Holy Spirit is God's very breath of life, just like our breath of life.

"the LORD God formed the man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath [ruach] of life, and the man became a living being."
-Genesis 2:7 (NIV)

sunny_12 said...

Austin,
I read your post. I want you to give me scripture, and things to look up and better proof.
You relize that I have to follow the belief I have anyway? Well, untill i get older. I have to follow what my perents say, and no, I'm not saying that I 100% agree with you.

Jo

sunny_12 said...

Your scripture didn't help.

How about this, you tell me where you learned this. If from a preacher, then find out where your preacher got it.

sunny_12 said...

Okay, i guess what I'm looking for is a pmphlet or article.

Austin said...

You are not required to hold the same beliefs that your parents do. If they were to say that Jesus is not the messiah, then you would have to believe that he is the messiah anyway.

That doesn't mean you don't have to honor and obey them. It just means that your beliefs are your own. If your parents were to deny Christ, you would not be expected by God to follow them in their beliefs.

"If anyone comes to me and does not hate his father and mother, his wife and children, his brothers and sisters—yes, even his own life—he cannot be my disciple."
-Luke 14:26 (NIV)

I'm not even asking you to do that. I'm just saying you can believe the truth, even if your parents decide not to. (I don't know what they believe, so this is in no way an attack on them.)

Austin said...

I haven't learned much of what I know from preachers. I do my own research. I'll give you something to look up soon.

Austin said...

Okay, so you want proof that ruach and pneuma means breath?

Well, let's start with your definition (which is correct), and we'll go from there.

You say (and rightly so) that ruach and pneuma mean "air in motion". Good.

If someone said something about "Austin's ruach", then what are they talking about? What is "Austin's air in motion"?

You think it's a force or feeling (I don't know what word you use) that drives a person's actions, but this is not the Biblical use of the words ruach and pneuma.

See this example:

"the LORD God formed the man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath [ruach] of life, and the man became a living being."
-Genesis 2:7 (NIV)

What does ruach mean in this instance? Clearly, it means Adam's breath. It turns out that anytime you see "so-and-so's ruach" in the Bible, it doesn't mean an attitude or driving force, it means their breath of life.

This is not from a pamphlet or article, it is from Biblical example and nearly universal opinion. Ask any Hebrew scholar what "Jo's ruach" means, and he or she will tell you that it means your breath (of life).

Your breath is air in motion.

Your interpretation of someone's "air in motion" suggests that you don't consider it to be literal air, but rather figurative air, or magical air or something. You attack superstitious beliefs in ghosts in your post, but then you give an equally ridiculous belief that someone's air-in-motion is some mystical driving force or imaginary air-that-moves-them.

I'm taking it literally. A person's "air in motion" is their breath. This is not something that I made up, this is a Biblical fact. Read the Bible's examples, and ask any scholar.

It is a matter of FACT that a person's ruach is their "breath".

Anonymous said...

"the LORD God formed the man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath [ruach] of life, and the man became a living being."
-Genesis 2:7 (NIV)

Wow! All the sudden it came so clear. Thanks!

Anonymous said...

"the LORD God formed the man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath [ruach] of life, and the man became a living being."
-Genesis 2:7 (NIV)

Wow! All the sudden it came so clear. Thanks!

Anonymous said...

"The LORD God formed the man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath [ruach] of life, and the man became a living being."
-Genesis 2:7 (NIV)

Wow! All the sudden it came so clear. Thanks!

Anonymous said...

ahh!!! sorry!

Anonymous said...

"You relize that I have to follow the belief I have anyway? Well, untill i get older. I have to follow what my perents say..." --Jo

Austin is right, Jo. Unless you are under the "age/maturity of accountability"--which you seem to not be--you need to possess your beliefs for yourself. Go to the other post--the one with all the comments--and one of my most recent comments addresses this specifically to Lanna, but it applies to you too.

H.F.O.W.C.:

Here are some CLEAR precepts in the Bible that your daughters are not "assenting to": Jesus is God; the Holy Spirit is a distinct Person; and Satan, demons, and angels are distinct personal spirit beings.

Austin said...

Jo,

The Holy Spirit is given way too many personal attributes in the Bible for your understanding of the Holy Spirit to be fully correct.

If your understanding of the Holy Spirit is true, the please answer these questions for me:

1. Why did the Apostles have to wait for him to be sent?

2. How did the Holy Spirit (with your understanding of it) manage to impart tongues-speaking and prophecy?

Austin said...

I'm going to quote Ben Williams for you, and show you where he leaves reason behind him.


The English word "spirit" is translated from the Hebrew Old Scriptures word "RUACH' (roo'akh). Also, in the Greek New Scriptures, the word is "PNEUMA" (pa-nyew'-mah). In both cases the words literally mean "AIR IN MOTION." That is the strict literal meaning of "spirit."


So far, so good. This is all correct. But I want you to pay very close attention to the way he words the rest of the paragraph:


But in practical use, a spirit is "that which animates or causes things to move" - as wind can cause things to move. Spirit, then, is that which compels action and generates movement.


"in practical use" - what does he mean by that? Well, I'll tell you. It means he used his own reason to figure out how the word might be used, instead of looking to the ancient Greeks, whose language it was.

"in practical use" the word pneuma by itself usually means "wind". It's that simple. It means air blowing.

In Greek, however, when the word pneuma is used before a possessive word (say "of God" or "of Austin", for example), it refers in every instance to ONE THING AND ONE THING ONLY! ...BREATH!!!

Ben imagines that since "pneuma" means "air in motion," then "pneuma of Ben" must mean some figurative air the moves Ben. This is NOT the way the Greeks used it - this is the way that Ben decided would make sense. But the Greeks used it to mean the "air in motion" that comes out of Ben's mouth.

"Pneuma of Ben" means "Ben's breath". This is EXACTLY how the ancient Greeks used it when talking about a person. It is also EXACTLY how the ancient Hebrews used "ruach" when talking about a person, which is why the LXX translates "ruach" as "pneuma".

Your pneuma is your breath of life. It is what separates you from the dead. A dead body may look like you, but it is not alive, and you are alive. You are breathing - you have the breath of life. That is what spirit means. It isn't some feeling or driving wind that motivates you. Ben Williams is making up his own interpretation, instead of researching how the word was actually used.

Genesis 2:7 proves the true interpretation without question (as Daisy managed to tell us three times), and the rest of the Bible is consistent with it.

I don't believe in ghosts. But I know that a person's spirit is not an "air that moves them". Each person has one spirit, as the Bible shows. Which spirit is yours, Jo? Happiness? the Holy Spirit? (or, as you think of him, the holy imaginary force).

You have only one spirit - it is your breath of life. Genesis 2:7 pretty much proves it.

sunny_12 said...

Hey Austin,
Does it really matter? NO, it doesn't. No more comments on this post, well, at least no comments that are arguments.
I don't have time, and it's just not sounding good. Sorry for provoking, no more, okay?


JO:0

Austin said...

Hey, don't get mad. I was just trying to answer your questions.

sunny_12 said...

I'm not mad.

Austin said...

I'm glad. And I'm sorry you almost lost your blog.

sunny_12 said...

Don't be sorry. Just thank God that I didn't lose it!: )