I want to see how different our opinions are. Tell me what YOU think this means:
Matthew 12:32 to work sensibly and logically Yaweh, Jesus, and the holy spirit have to be three separate things.
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Romans 12:17
Do not repay anyone evil for evil. Be careful to do what is right in the eyes of everybody.
Ephesians 4:28-29
He who has been stealing must steal not longer, but must work, doing something useful with his own hands, that he may have something to share with those in need.
Do not let any inwholesome talk come out of yours mouths, but only what is helpful for building others up according to their needs, that it may benefit those who listen.
Matthew 11:4-6
Jesus replied,"Go back and report to John what you hear and see: The blind receive sight, the lame walk, those who have leprosy are cured, the deaf hear, the dead are raised, and the good new is preached to the poor. Blessed is the man who does not fall away on account of me.
122 comments:
no, i didn't get Sporky Sporkness from Lord of the Beans. i had this name before that movie came out. lol. but i do love that movie! :-D
This is a cool verse.
I pirsonally think this verse meens that yaweh, Jesus, and the holy spirit work in different ways through Christians. What I meen by this is I believe that the holy spirit works through our minds, Jesus works through our hearts, and God makes it all happen.
Anyone want to know what I think??? Just wait, when I have more time, I'll explain what I think.
Thank you, Daisy, for commenting. Glad you're on!!!
It definately proves the trinity that's for sure. =D
Okay, here is what I think...
Matthew 12:32
to work sensibly and logically Yahweh, Jesus, and the holy spirit have to be three separate things.
I believe that this proves that God is not triune, and that the trinity isn't true. (You may argue all you want. I like it when people test my beliefs... just don't take it too far!)
I believe that the holy spirit is just that, a spirit. Like the spirit of happiness, or the spirit of sadness. This is the spirit to do God's will...God puts this into you.
Jesus is the Lord's son, sent down on earth... he is not God himself. Jesus could be surprised, but the Lord cannot.
The Lord is our God, the one who created us all. He who created everything, the land, the water, everything.
Okay enough, enough...
What do YOU think???
For some reason, it's not accepting my pass.
I don't feal like arguing about this verse. We all don't know for sure, so we may all be wrong. I may be wrong so I don't want to kill you with a false thing.
I think your opinion is good enough anyway.
Trinity?
NO WAY!
It does not prove that!
Sorry, but I think that trinity is a bunch of noodles!There is plenty of logic and scripture behind it all and I'm not even going to go there.
NOPE!
Lanna
Lanna,
I didn't get that. I think it's proving against the trinity too.
I want to know what Austin thinks...
JO
So,lanna, are you saying the trinity doesn't exist, or it doesn't have anything to do with this verse? Do you have a verse to back it up?
I'm glad you like your beliefs tested, Jo, because I'm afraid you are wrong here.
"I believe that the holy spirit is just that, a spirit. Like the spirit of happiness, or the spirit of sadness. This is the spirit to do God's will..."
The Holy Spirit is a Spirit LIKE GOD IS A SPIRIT. The "spirits" you speak of are just feelings...that is not what the Holy Spirit is confined to.
The Holy Spirit is a Person: Personal Attributes.
The Holy Spirit Helps: John 14:16, 26 ; Romans 8:26.
The Holy Spirit Glorifies: John 16:14
The Holy Spirit Can Be Known: John 14:17
The Holy Spirit Gives Abilities: Acts 2:4 ; 1 Corinthians 12:7-11
The Holy Spirit Referred to as "He": John 15:26 ; 16:7, 8, 13
The Holy Spirit Loves: Romans 15:30
The Holy Spirit Guides: John 16:13
The Holy Spirit Comforts: John 14:26
The Holy Spirit Teaches: Luke 12:12 ; John 14: 26
The Holy Spirit Reminds: John 14:26
The Holy Spirit Bears Witness: John 15:26 ; Acts 5:32 ; Romans 8:16
The Holy Spirit Hears: John 16:13
("School of Biblical Evangelism" By: Ray Comfort & Kirk Cameron)
Need I go on? I can, but I think the point is made that the Holy Spirit is not as you describe HIM (He's a Him, after all! The Bible says so!)
I encourage you to look up all these passages.
"The Lord is our God, the one who created us all. He who created everything, the land, the water, everything."
Hmm...so you're saying Jesus didn't create? Because the Bible says that He did have a part in Creation.
"For by Him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by Him, and for Him." (Colossians 1:16)
"All things were made by Him; and without Him was not anything made that was made." (John 1:3)
"Jesus could be surprised, but the Lord cannot."
Jesus could be surprised? Please reference the Bible for this. If you are referring to His question, "Who touched Me?" there are different interpretations of that act. When Jesus knew the whereabouts of Nathaniel, knew the plot of Judas, knew the hearts and thoughts of the Pharisees, knew the history of the Samaritan woman, etc., do you really think that He did not know Who touched Him? Twice the disciples said to Jesus that "You know all things" and Jesus did not refute them. (John 16:30 ; 21: 17)
Some say that Jesus was illustrating His humanity. Some say that He wanted to point out the woman's faith. Some say that "He wanted to establish a personal relationship with the healed person, untainted with quasi-magical notions." ("The Bible Knowledge Commentary") All those views are likely more in line with Scripture contextually than saying that "Jesus could be surprised."
Anyways...if it is a different passage of which you speak, point it out, please.
"Jesus is the Lord's son, sent down on earth... he is not God himself."
Yes, Jesus is the Son of God. Jesus is not the Father. But, Jesus IS God.
John 1:1
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word WAS GOD." The Word is Jesus.
John 20:28
"Thomas answered and said to Him, 'My LORD and my GOD!'"
Jesus did not rebuke Thomas for saying this.
Titus 2:13
"...our GREAT GOD and Savior, Christ Jesus..."
2 Peter 1:1
"...our GOD and Savior, Jesus Christ..."
Matthew 1:23
"Behold, the virgin shall be with Child and shall bear a Son, and they shall call His name IMMANUEL, WHICH TRANSLATED MEANS, 'GOD WITH US.'"
John 5:18
"For this reason therefore the Jews werre seeking all the more to kill Him, because He not only was breaking the Sabbath, but also was calling God His own Father, making HIMSELF EQUAL WITH GOD."
"I and the Father are One." (Sorry, don't have that reference right now.)
I could go on here, too, (with a hat tip again to the "School of Biblical Evangelism"), but unless you want me to, I don't think it necessary.
I don't mean to sound too sharp with you, Jo. I'm actually glad you brought this up, because it really bothers that you believe what you say. How can the Holy Spirit be living in you and active in your life if you don't acknowledge His existence and attributes?
I hope I've been able to persuade you of the truth, but ultimately I must depend on God to do that.
Sorry Jo, I haven't been on any blogs in over a week. I'll answer your question now. I have a few things for you to chew on until I can answer better.
I don't use the word trinity, because it confuses people into thinking about 3 gods. However, I don't think it's fair for you to assume that that's what people mean when they say trinity.
Re: Holy Spirit
You said, "I believe that the holy spirit is just that, a spirit."
Jesus said, "God is spirit," in John 4:24.
Therefore, it would be accurate to say that God is JUST a spirit!
For the record, "spirit" means, and comes from, the word for "breath", in English, Hebrew, and Greek. Yes, in all three of those languages, this is true. It always refers to something LIVING AND BREATHING.
"God formed the man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath [spirit] of life, and the man became a living being [soul]."
-Genesis 2:6 (NIV, not the whole verse, words in brackets mine)
Re: Jesus' identity
"God said to Moses, "I am who I am . This is what you are to say to the Israelites: 'I AM has sent me to you.' ""
-Exodus 3:14 (NIV)
"I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!"
-John 8:58 (NIV)
Jesus used God's name for himself! By the way, the Hebrew word for "I am" is the origin of the tetragrammaton, normally written in English as YHWH or Yahweh. Therefore, Jesus clearly claimed to be Yahweh. Further evidence is that the Jews immediately recognized his statement as blasphemy.
"At this, they picked up stones to stone him"
-John 8:59 (NIV, not the whole verse)
If Jesus was not claiming to be "I AM" from Exodus, then he clearly made a grammer mistake and used present tense when he should have used past tense. Why didn't he say, "Before Abraham was born, I was!" Answer? because he was claiming to be God!!!
He also said that he and the Father are one. He also said that anyone who knows the Father also knows the Son and vice versa.
Distinction between Father and Son is necessary. God came in the flesh, and he was called Emmanuel, which means "God with us"! Go read it in the beginning of Matthew! God in the flesh refers to the Son. Father refers to God as he is in control of everything.
The Holy Spirit is God dwelling within us. Jesus described the Holy Spirit as a person and attributed to it activities that only some sort of "person" can carry out - not some impersonal thing. The Holy Spirit is refered to by Paul and others as the "Spirit of God" and the "Spirit of Christ". Without God's own personal Spirit, the apostles said that a person did not really belong to Christ.
Don't get too upset about words like trinity and triune. Just remember that Jesus is indeed God, and that God's own personal Spirit (and Christ's, they're the same according to Paul and Jesus himself) lives in you.
Why call Jesus Son and not Father? There must be a distinction because Jesus is God come in the flesh. Also, God, who is still in charge even when he is Jesus, is the Father and in authority over the Son, though Jesus says they are one. Jesus says that the Son only does what he sees the father doing, and later he told the disciples that the Holy Spirit only repeats what the Son says. That sounds like three of something, and I have just shown you that no single one of those is not God. The one true God is an accurate title for each.
Quick question: Did you know that in some places the NT says Jesus raised himself from the dead, and in others it says the Father raised him. How do you think both could be true? There's only one way, my friend.
Another great verse:
Colossians 2:9
"For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form."
You may claim the passage "...the Father is greater than I..." (John 14:28) as proof for your belief. But really, I don't think it is:
Philippians 2:5-8, 11:
"Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, who, although He EXISTED IN THE FORM OF GOD, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.
....
"...every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is LORD."
Part of the explanation of that passage is that Jesus was setting an example for us, as He was a man, as well as God.
The other part of the explanation is really complex, and I can't get into it right now (I'm getting really tired. ;))
Just because the Doctrine of the Trinity is so complex and confusing, don't give up on it Jo.
If I get the time, I will try to discuss the Trinity with you--although I must admit, it is baffling. But that's no reason to not believe it. That would be prideful, saying, "I can't understand it, therefore it is not true." This has to be the thing most often believed by sheer faith over Christian history.
One quick note: I've heard the Trinity described as a circle, divided into three equal parts. Each is a different part (has different roles/jobs/attributes though similar in others) but each is equal, part of one circle (always in agreement and all "one").
I don't know if I explained that just right, but oh, well for now...
Good night. ;)
Kingdom Advancer provided an excellent list of verses - please think about them carefully - but there are many more too, especially in OT messianic prophecies. Take this one, for example:
"For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us;And the government will rest on His shoulders;And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,Eternal Father, Prince of Peace."
If Jesus isn't God, then Isaiah is a false prophet and we should stop reading his writing. Also, since Jesus quoted Isaiah frequently and once said that it was fulfilled when he spoke it, you would also have to throw out his words. Sorry, no can do.
About Jesus being surprised, this is no surprise. In flesh, he chose only to know things when he wanted to. Do you think he could build skyscrapers when he was a baby in the manger? Sure, if he really wanted, but he didn't. He wanted to be a baby. Can God limit himself? Well, he makes promises. He always keeps them. That's a kind of "limit", so to speak, though God can do anything. Can I demonstrate from the Bible that Jesus limited himself from doing big things that he still could have done? could he allow himself to be surprised? Can I show that Jesus could limit his Godly abilities? As a matter of fact, I'm glad I asked:
"Do you think I cannot call on my Father, and he will at once put at my disposal more than twelve legions of angels? But how then would the Scriptures be fulfilled that say it must happen in this way?" "
-Matthew 26:53-54 (NIV)
In Jesus' time, when the Jews read YHWH (Yahweh) in the OT, they wouldn't say the name. Instead, they said Adonai, which means Lord. Jesus himself did it when he quoted psalms where it says "YHWH said to my Lord" as "The Lord said to my lord".
Paul says that if we confess with our mouths that Jesus is Lord, we will be saved. All the Apostles frequently called him the Lord Jesus Christ. What do you make of this, Jo?
Okay,
Austin, Kingdom advancer, both of you,
I love it that you like to test my beliefs, but I don't have enough time to read, or answer those right now. It may be awhile. I am only allowed on her for another half hour, because it took my computer 20 minutes to turn on and pull things up.
KIngdom Advancer only,
I read part of yours. Thank you for all the scriptures. I will have to look them up later....
GOt to hurry up!!!!!!!!
JO
No problem, Jo. Take your time. We're just trying to help. If you have to pick and choose what to read, read Kingdom Advancer's list of verses that show that Jesus is God. Also check out my little section on Jesus' unique use of the words "I am".
Yeah, Jo, it's okay if you don't get to them right away. Just as long as you eventually do. (If you have limited time on the computer, you could possibly just print up the comment list and look at it away from the computer. ;)) I thought I might overwhelm you with how much I wrote at one time, and then Austin started posting simultaneously with me, and we almost created book. ;) But, we actually just tapped the surface of biblical evidence for Jesus as God, Holy Spirit as a Person, etc.
Jo,
About the Holy Spirit, perhaps you will understand better if you learn something of the language. You seem to think that "Spirit of God" can refer simply to a spirit that God sends or a spirit that represents God's attitude or something like that, but this interpretation falls apart in the Greek language, in which the NT was written.
"of God", in Greek, is possesive. It is one word, not two, and is better translated as "God's". In Greek they put possesive adjectives after the noun being modified, but in English we put them before the noun. The proper translation of "Spirit of God" is therefore "God's Spirit"
When we say "spirit of" something, we may be using it loosely and figuratively, but when we say something's spirit, the meaning is very clear. You might say "spirit of happiness" but you wouldn't say "Happiness's spirit". The former makes since, the latter does not. The Greek says "God's Spirit", talking about the Holy Spirit. The meaning is very clear.
Sorry Jo, I know you may not read this for a while, but I found another relevant Scripture. Kingdom Advancer provided Colossians 1:16 to illustrate that Jesus had a hand in creating everything, but there are verses surrounding that verse that show the Deity of Christ, so I thought it was worth quoting the whole section. I'll put in bold words that are directly relevant to our topic:
"He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.
For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities--all things have been created through Him and for Him.
He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.
He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everything.
For it was the Father's good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him,
and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven."
-Colossians 1:15-20 (NASB)
Austin,
I did not read all these notes, but are you saying that you believe in trinity?
Lanna,
Austin does believe in the trinity. Or at lease that's what I got out of it. I'm not feeling well, and I don't get up this early very often, and don't forget, I'm freezing cold.
Austin,
Right now I have tome to read all that, but I really can't absorb much at a time. I have to think of arguments, and pray. Decide what I should believe...
Kingdom advancer,
Thank you again for all the verses. Like I said, I can only do so much, and understand it, at a time. You and Austin both sound like you believe that "Incarnation" is true. Well, I don't. I will read the pamphlet that we have somewhere around her, about "Incarnation" and then I will tell you more.
It's good for my beliefs to be tested, it can only make them better and stronger.
I read the "Jesus can be surprised" thing. I can't remember exactly where in the bible it was, but I do remember it said that he was surprised. I'll get into that after I figure out where it the bible it said that.
I have no idea why, but I want to say that I auditioned for a Shakespeare play last night. I did excellent.
WHoa,
I'm backing up to the question that keith m. gave me.....
"So,lanna, are you saying the trinity doesn't exist, or it doesn't have anything to do with this verse? Do you have a verse to back it up?"
Both.
No.
There isn't a scripture that says that the trinity isn't true because it was not a problem at that time.
But there isn't one that says it is.
You, KEITH (not Austin or Kingdom), show me scripture that says, for sure, that trinity is true. More then one would be better.
Austin,
Jeez. I would think, after agreeing with your beliefs on so many things, you of all people believe in such a shameful ordeal. You should be ashamed. Right now, bow your head and kneel to you God....and maybe, he might show mercy!
Lanna(:
Lanna
Lanna,
This may sound a little tense, but it's all in love. You told me to be ashamed! I'm going to show you who should be ashamed.
It's funny that you criticize me instead of explaining the Scriptures that I provided. If you're really right, then you should be able to explain those Scriptures. You can't, so you stoop to insulting me instead. You should be ashamed. :)
I never said I believe in the trinity. The trinity is a model created by men to help understand Jesus' relationship to the Father and the Holy Spirit - it came later, not during the times of the Apostles. The apostles didn't need it, and I don't need it either, but if some people do, then good for them. I don't think it's bad or evil, like you do, but we can agree to disagree. The point is, I never used the word trinity in my argument, so you have no right to accuse me of believing anything false about the trinity.
I said nothing about believing the trinity, and yet you tell me that I should be ashamed on that grounds. Why don't you read what I actually said, and then explain where I'm wrong about ANYTHING that I said. You can't! but you should at least try if you're going to tell me to be ashamed.
What bothers me is that Jo doesn't believe in the Deity of Christ. She has agreed to pray about it and study some more, so I think it'll work out. If she finds that our Scriptures are wrong or have another explanation, then she will tell us what that other explanation is. Hopefully she will not waste her time insulting me instead of using the Bible to teach me. You could learn from your little sister.
As for you Lanna, please stop insulting me, start reading the verses Kingdom Advancer and I provided, and then explain what they mean. Until you do that, your insults will not be accepted.
I'm beginning to wonder if I should copy and paste Kingdom Advancer's verses into a new posts, since you don't seem to have read them.
I should be ashamed for believing the Bible? Well, I'll take my chances...
What's next, Lanna? No resurrection? No miracles? After all, the Bible was only kidding, but any one with common sense would follow these instructions instead:
"you of all people believe in such a shameful ordeal [the Bible]. You should be ashamed [of the Bible]. Right now, bow your head and kneel to you God....and maybe, he might show mercy! [for believing the Bible]"
Jo,
No incarnation? Ahem, pamphlet or no pamphlet, I've got a BIBLE:
"For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form."
-Colossians 2:9 (NASB)
If your pamphlet contradicts, then I'll stick with the Bible, thank you.
I found Kingdom Advancer's mystery Scripture:
"I and the Father are one."
-John 10:30 (NASB)
Jo,
I have to think of arguments, and pray. Decide what I should believe...
Good, that's what I like to see.
I'm glad you did well in your audition too.
Lanna,
I'd be careful with the "shame-bombs" if I were you. But, since they are being dropped, how about this quote (I don't know said it) that seems more accurate than your insult to Austin:
"If you try to figure out the Trinity, you will lose your mind; if you deny the Trinity, you will lose your soul."
These are the facts, point by point:
1.) The Bible is CLEAR that the Holy Spirit is a distinct Person. I could go on in showing you the Scriptures, but I figured I provided enough.
2.) The Bible is CLEAR on Jesus Christ's deity. No, He is not the Father, but yes, He is God. Austin and I could continue showing you that, but we've already provided enough evidence that it will take Jo time to sort through it all.
3.) The Bible is CLEAR that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are three distinct persons.
4.) The Bible is CLEAR that there is one God.
This is what I find funny about your insult, Lanna:
1.) You provide no Scripture references to disprove what Austin and I are saying.
2.) You provide no alterior position. Is it one of these, please tell us so that we can address your particular beliefs:
a.) The belief that God is one person, the Father, with Jesus as a created being and the Holy Spirit as a force.
b.) The belief that God is one person who took three consecutive forms, i.e., the Father became the Son, who became the Holy Spirit.
c.) The belief that God is the divine nature of the Son, where Jesus had a human nature perceived as the Son and a divine nature perceived as the Father.
d.) The belief that there arethree separate "Gods".
e.) Other (Please explain.)
(Paraphrased from "School of Biblical Evangelism")
3.) Also, not only have you not stated your position, but you also don't back it up with Scripture, whereas everything Austin and I have said has been backed up with God's Word. Where are you coming from?
It would be great to have a debate, but it's difficult when someone states no position or evidence for a position, just condescending remarks such as "it's a bunch of noodles" and "shame on you."
I'm reminded of a conversation in an episode of The Cosby Show between husband and wife, Martin and Denice:
Denice: This is our first fight.
Martin: No, this is not a fight. A fight is where two people exchange their opposing point of views. YOU HAVE NO POINT OF VIEW!
--
I'm sure you have a point of view, Lanna, but you have not stated it, and you have not acknowledged the vast amount of biblical evidence stacked up against your claims that my and Austin's views are not true.
The Trinity is something very difficult to understand or explain--in fact, as the above quote says, it might make you go crazy. We can't fully seem to understand it with our finite minds.
Just wanted to let you know that I can't get into it any more right now. Maybe tomorrow.
Sorry to overwhelm you, Lanna.
I'm providing a pic on my blog soon (it probably won't be on there for long), and I just updated (2 new posts).
"If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; from now on you know Him, and have seen Him."
Philip said to Him, "Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us."
Jesus said to him, "Have I been so long with you, and yet you have not come to know Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; how can you say, 'Show us the Father'?
-John 14:6-9 (NASB)
Um...case closed?
Biblical Proof that Jesus is YHWH
Sorry there are so many comments here, but if you only read a third of it, you won't be able to deny that Jesus is God.
Exodus 34:14 Do not worship any other god, for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God.
Matthew 4:10 Jesus said to him, “Away from me, Satan! For it is written: ‘Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only.’”
Hebrews 1:6 And again, when God brings his firstborn into the world, he says, “Let all God’s angels worship him.”
"But of the Son He says,
"YOUR THRONE, O GOD, IS FOREVER AND EVER,
AND THE RIGHTEOUS SCEPTER IS THE SCEPTER OF HIS KINGDOM."
-Hebrews 1:8 (NASB)
Don't stop me now, I'm on a roll!
Just one more:
Everyone (well, Jo and Lanna) keep asking what I believe about this touchy topic known as the "Trinity". You want to know where we differ. Do we both disbelieve the Trinity, or do I believe it? Here's my answer: I don't care much for talk of three-fold circles and what-not (is this the "noodles" you're refering to, Lanna?), but I do believe that Jesus is God and that the Holy Spirit is God's own personal Spirit living in us. I want you to be more specific. The Trinity is not one doctrine, it's a model attempting to explain (imcompletely, I think) several other important doctrines. Among them are Christ's Deity and the Holy Spirit's personality and Deity. You reject these important doctrines; I accept them. That's where we differ. Trinity? Not sure what that means, really. Not sure where it even comes from. But you have denied Christ's Divinity and the Holy Spirit's personality, both of which are clearly outlined in the Bible.
Okay, so here's where we agree:
Trinity model - somewhat "noodly"
Here's where we disagree (I believe these things, you don't):
Jesus - God in flesh
Holy Spirit - God's Spirit, Christ's Spirit, personal
Father, Son, Holy Spirit distinct, but not different in Spirit and nature.
Jeez Austin,
I was only being a goof ball. I was just giving you a hard time. Don't let it get to you head. Goshie.
I'll do my studying. In love, I'm saying "Don't freak out!"
You are a goof too.
My. oh. my.
Oh, and for your picture, leave it on until I comment on it, cause I only get every other day on the computer and sometimes I don't get time to check our blogs.
Lanna:))
Oh and,
Yes, you are right,
I don't think that Jesus is God, AND I happen to not have but a few minutes on here at a time. I will look up your scripture VERY soon. I care about what you have to say because I trust that you have studied. This doesn't mean I agree on everything you say. I will put my heart and soul into reading your scriptures. I promise. Thank you for posting them for me. :)
Lanna
Good, read all the comments on here when you get a chance, especially the verses we've provided.
If Jesus is not God, then could someone who thinks he's not please explain all those Scriptures Kingdom Advancer and I provided? I don't see how they can have any other meaning besides that Jesus is God.
Maybe this will make it easier for you guys to understand how the Father and Son can be distinct, and yet Jesus still be God:
God is Spirit; he is not made of flesh or any earthly thing.
God came in flesh. That would be Jesus.
"image of the invisible God"
-Colossians 1:15
"in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form."
-Colossians 2:9
Get it? Where God is invisible, Jesus is his bodily form, his image. God is Spirit, but he came in flesh as Jesus.
So Father means God, who is Spirit. Son means God's bodily form, which he chose to take on so he could die for our sins, rise from the dead, and be given all authority in heaven and on earth.
The link I provided that says "Biblical Proof that Jesus is YHWH" contains a list of attributes that Jesus gave himself, that YHWH specifically also claimed for himself in the Old Testament, and said that NO ONE ELSE would EVER have these attributes, except him alone.
I also showed you some verses that say God told the people to worship God ALONE, and Jesus also quoted a Scripture that says to "worship the Lord, and serve him ONLY". Then I showed you a verse where YHWH says to his angels, "WORSHIP HIM!" about Jesus!
The Son distinction is necessary because God as Jesus chose to humble himself for us and be a servant (see Philippians 2 for an excellent explanation of this, not to mention Scriptural proof for what I just wrote.)
Okay, Father and Son taken care of. Anyone who reads all the comments will not be able to deny it.
Okay, what about the Holy Spirit? Well, that's easy enough to explain.
What happens when God's Spirit (God is Spirit, according to Jesus) comes and lives in someone, inspiring them, reminding them, teaching them, etc.?
We call that the "Holy Spirit" - um, not ME, the BIBLE.
Jo and Lanna, does all that make it a little easier to understand?
You explained it pretty well, Austin, but I think it is important to emphasize that the following belief is NOT biblical:
The Father of the Old Testament became the Son, and then the Son became the Holy Spirit. That is not biblical when you consider statements of Jesus, for instance, like "I will go to the Father, and...a Helper will come" (or something along those lines.) or God's statement in the beginning: "Let us make man in OUR image."
I don't think that is what you are trying to say, but in the confusion of trinitarian doctrines, that sometimes seems apparent, when it is not true.
I think you explained it pretty well, Austin, but this distinction needs to be made:
The Father did not become the Son, and then the Son become the Holy Spirit. That is not biblical. They are three distinct persons, yet one in nature and essence.
I'm not saying you believe that; I just wanted to clarify.
Also, the Holy Spirit is a distinct person as well, though again, one in nature and essence with the Father and the Son.
P.S. That's weird how similar but different comments came up for me. I didn't mean that.
I don't really think this is a goof-ball matter, Lanna. You don't believe Jesus is God?
How about this verse:
"So at the name of Jesus every knee will bow, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and that every tongue will confess that JESUS CHRIST IS LORD, to the glory of God the Father."
(Philippians 2:10)
To disbelieve Jesus is God is to disbelieve the Bible, and if you disbelieve the Bible, what exactly are you believing? "All Scripture is God-breathed," as the Bible says. If you discard parts, how do you trust the rest?
Will you bow to Jesus as Lord now, willingly, or by irresistible compulsion in the future?
That verse was Philippians 2:10-11.
The "All Scripture is inspired" verse is 2 Timothy 3:16.
Thanks, let me clarify.
The Bible does make it very clear that Jesus and the Holy Spirit were always there. For example, the OT writers were said in the NT to have written the Scriptures by the Spirit. Jesus is also said to have been there from the very start, and to have been the one by whom and for whom ALL THINGS WERE CREATED.
John refers to Jesus as the Logos, which can mean reason, or a rational thought, whether spoken or only thought. This is translated Word because it also held a meaning to the Hebrews, most of whom heard God's words, rather than reading them like we do today. Naturally, hearing God's words was very important to them. The Greeks, on the other hand, were more sight-oriented, so things changed through the centuries, as the Gospel was spread.
Jesus can be thought of as God's thought and speech (God's expression or communication is more accurate, since Logos doesn't necessarily mean spoken word only, and obviously some people, such as the Deaf, would be watching God's words). But John 1:1 makes it clear that God's Word (Logos) is God himself.
I'm going to get deep on you here. Imagine that the nature of God is so far beyond our comprehension that every aspect of his being is personified, but every aspect is also God himself. For example, God is so far beyond us that even his thought is as much like a person as we are. But he is still one God. His thought is still him. Even the Hebrew word for God, Elohim, is PLURAL. But the Bible says, "Hear O Israel, YHWH our Elohim (plural), YHWH is one". So we refer to him by a plural noun, but he's one? That's deep. Even his characteristics are so far above ours that they're best described as personal.
But you must not go thinking that if God manifested one aspect of himself (like Logos) into bodily form (Jesus), then that person would only be part of God. Not true. Jesus is ALL God.
"In Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form."
-Colossians 2:9
"In the beginning was the Logos, and the Logos was with God, and the Logos was God."
-John 1:1
I was listening to a rap recently (as I often do), and the rapper (Da' Truth) called God "the holiest being" and Jesus Christ "the holiest meaning". This MC clearly knows his scriptures, because Jesus is indeed Biblically described as God's meaning (Logos).
Another Scripture showing that God's attributes are personified, yet he's still one, is the one in Genesis were he says "Let us make man in our image."
Austin,
You're saying that you DO believe in "Incarnation" because the Trinity is "Incarnation". I am going to read that thing about it, and then I will answer you and Kingdom Advancer. I don't know very much about "Incarnation" yet, but I will write up something for you both when I can (very soon, Okay?).
Please tell me, if this scripture does not go against the Trinity, then what does it mean? I didn't see if you even said what you thought it mean, because I haven't even read very many of the comments. Tell me!
Jo,
You're saying that you DO believe in "Incarnation" because the Trinity is "Incarnation".
Wrong. Let me break down the logic in this statement, and then explain the problem with it.
You make two premises, and then form a conclusion:
1. Austin believes in a three-fold God, or something like that. (This is often called the Trinity.)
2. If someone believes in the Trinity, they must believe in the Incarnation.
Conclusion:
3. Austin believes in the Incarnation.
This logic (and therefore your statement) is false because both premises are false.
Your conclusion, though based on false premises, happens to be true. I do believe in the Incarnaton, and I said so. I also provided at least one verse that proves the Incarnation 100%.
I can't tell you whether I believe in the Trinity or not unless you explain what you mean by "Trinity". I don't think of God as three-fold or triune or anything like that. Therefore, my views on the Trinity are not orthodox, as you have assumed.
I do believe that Jesus is God in flesh. I also believe that the Holy Spirit is God's real, personal Spirit. If that's the Trinity, then fine, I believe it. But I vote for changing the name, because it implies that God is three-fold or something. I don't believe that.
All right, Jo, I'll answer your question about the Scripture you provided. First, here's the Scripture:
"Whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man, it shall be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come. "
-Matthew 12:32 (NASB)
I have already told you more than once that I am not a trinitarian, yet you continue to assume that I am.
Well, though I'm not a trinitarian, it just so happens that this verse doesn't even contradict the Trinity.
So let's pretend I believe and accept a fully orthodox view of the Trinity, since no matter how many times I tell you I don't, you just assume that I do anyway. I'm going to show you that even if I believed the Trinity in the normal way, this Scripture STILL wouldn't disprove it.
Trinitarians believe many different things about God being triune and what-not, but here's a few basics that most trinitarians agree on. (By the way, I actually do agree with everything on this list, though I don't believe in much of the rest of the Trinity doctrine):
1. God is one.
2. The Father is God.
3. Jesus is God.
4. The Holy Spirit is God.
5. The Father is distinct from the Son, though they are one (John 10:30)
6. The Son is distinct from the Holy Spirit.
7. The Holy Spirit is distinct from the Father.
Okay, so those are the beliefs in question. Now here's what you say:
Matthew 12:32 to work sensibly and logically Yaweh, Jesus, and the holy spirit have to be three separate things.
Let's assume your statement is true. Does the Trinity doctrine contradict it? No, it does not. Allow me to repeat three of those trinitarian beliefs:
5. The Father is distinct from the Son, though they are one (John 10:30)
6. The Son is distinct from the Holy Spirit.
7. The Holy Spirit is distinct from the Father.
It looks to me like there's no contradiction between what you said, what the trinitarians believe, and the Bible. On this particular area, all three are in harmony. Therefore, you have no case.
Holy Macaroni!!!!!!!!!!
Havn't been on here for a while..
sheesh.
WOWOWOWOWOWOW...
Wait, why does Jesus pray? and Why is God his "father?"
You should know by now that I am a very stubborn girl.
Now I will read you scripture (well soon anyway.)
Lanna
Austin,
We, Jo and Lanna, are here to show you what we believe, why, and why we don't believe in the Trinity (Or why we don't believe in Ytinirt- we made that one up ourselves!:))
Ytinirt (in your own words):
1. God is one.
2. The Father is God.
3. Jesus is God.
4. The Holy Spirit is God.
5. The Father is distinct from the Son, though they are one (John 10:30)
6. The Son is distinct from the Holy Spirit.
7. The Holy Spirit is distinct from the Father.
Our Belief (not Ytinirt):
1. Yes, GOd is one.
2. He is our maker.
3. Jesus is God's son. They are in partnership. (John 10: 29-30)
4. The holy spirit is not God, but is his tool.
5. They are two, but God works through Jesus, making them one in partnership.
If Ytinirt is true, is an image of a thing, the thing itself? Are the contents of a vessel the vessel itself? Is the creator the creation? Is the Father the son? Or is the son just an image of the father, like you are an image of your father? Are you your father?
You say
Jesus + God = one
Let's review our math skills:
Jesus = 1
God =1
Your saying:
1+1=1
WHAT!?!
No, 1+1=2, they are two.
But we are not dismissed yet.
If you're right, and Jesus is God, were we without a God for three days when Jesus died?
Kingdom advancer says here:
Yes, Jesus is the Son of God. Jesus is not the Father. But, Jesus IS God.
John 1:1
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word WAS GOD." The Word is Jesus.
But he shows no proof because there is none.
God is the Father.
How can Kingdom's words be true?
Answer away, and show us your proof of Ytinirt, or whatever.
We do this cause we care.
Lanna and Jo
John 1:1
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word WAS GOD." The Word is Jesus.
But he shows no proof because there is none.
Excuse me, but those aren't Kingdom Advancer's words, those are John's words.
John shows no proof that the Word was God? If you take the Gospel of John to be Scripture (I do), then you don't require him to prove his statements. You believe them.
Both myself and Kingdom Advancer have provided a ridiculously long list of Bible verses that say Jesus is God. Forget the "trinity", whatever that is, and EXPLAIN THE BIBLE VERSES!!!
Lanna and Jo say:
1. Yes, GOd is one.
2. He is our maker.
The Bible says:
"For by Him [Jesus] were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by Him, and for Him."
-Colossians 1:16
And:
"All things were made by Him [Jesus]; and without Him was not anything made that was made."
-John 1:3
What part of that don't you understand?
Lanna and Jo say:
Answer away, and show us your proof of Ytinirt, or whatever.
Austin specifically said:
"I never said I believe in the trinity. The trinity is a model created by men..."
Lanna and Jo say:
4. The holy spirit is not God, but is his tool.
The Bible says:
"And in him you too are being built together to become a dwelling in which God lives by his Spirit."
Ephesians 2:21
God lives in me? GASP!
"May God himself, the God of peace, sanctify you through and through. May your whole spirit, soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ."
1 Thessalonians 5:23
Pair that with this:
"...God chose you to be saved through the sanctifying work of the Spirit."
-2 Thessalonians 2:13
Jesus says, "God is spirit," in John 4:24.
Paul calls the Holy Spirit, "God's Spirit".
Lanna and Jo say:
Is the creator the creation? Is the Father the son?
Well, since the Bible says that "all things were created by him [Jesus]", that makes him the creator anyway. And he's the son. The son is the creator.
If you're right, and Jesus is God, were we without a God for three days when Jesus died?
Why do you girls believe in God at all?! You clearly consider him weak! Why do you limit him? Obviously the Father wasn't dead. Why can't God be two places at once? Remember, God is invisible, but when he comes as Jesus (Matthew says, "he shall be called Emmanuel, which, when translated, means 'God with us'"), then he is the visible Son.
You're the ones being influenced by pagan beliefs. Pagans consider the son of a god to be half human/half god or all god. You have chosen Jesus to be a demi-god. Is it because Mary is human? Do you think God slept with Mary like the Greeks believed their gods could sleep with people? Wake up, people. The Holy Spirit conceived Jesus. Mary just gave him birth. If you want Mary's role to be bigger, then become Catholic or something.
It's kind of hard, by the way, for a weak little nothing spirit (like a "spirit of happiness") to CONEIVE A PERSON! Yet, this is exactly what the Bible says the Holy Spirit (God's Spirit - God is Spirit) did.
Lanna and Jo,
Your Bibles are collecting dust.
Is the creator the creation? Is the Father the son?
The way you wrote that shows that you believe the following:
1. The creator is the Father.
2. The creation is the son.
Therefore, you believe that the son was created.
Was he?
"In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth."
-Genesis 1:1
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."
-John 1:1
"All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being."
-John 1:3
Through whom did the Word come into being if "apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being"?
And if "the Word was God", and as you say, the Word was created, then who, pray tell, created God?
You say
Jesus + God = one
When did I say that? I didn't. But I did quote a Bible verse (John 10:30) that says "I and the Father are one" - Jesus
So you aren't criticizing my math skills, you're criticizing Jesus' math skills.
Your statement should be revised from:
You say
Jesus + God = one
To:
Jesus says
Jesus + Father = one
"But he shows no proof because there is none." --Jo and Lanna
Well excuse me, but I figured you all must know the first chapter of John.
"And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth." (John 1:14)
So, the Word was God, and the Word BECAME FLESH. Who was the Word? That's right: Jesus.
"If you're right, and Jesus is God, were we without a God for three days when Jesus died?" --Jo and Lanna
What don't you understand about "one in nature, essence, rank," but distinct in person?
Also, Jesus was dead in body, but not in spirit. He said to the thief on the cross, "This day you will be with Me in paradise." To say that the death of Jesus meant He was "out of commission" for three days would be to imply that Jesus was a normal created man--and had always been a man--when, in fact, He created (see Austin's comments).
"For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him."
-Colossians 1:16 (NIV)
Let's have a little grammar lesson. Do you girls know the difference between the active voice and the passive voice?
You can say the same thing in two different ways.
The boy threw the ball. (active voice)
The ball was thrown by the boy. (passive voice)
If I say, "The ball was thrown by the boy," then is it accurate to say, "The boy threw the ball"?
Yes, of course. They are the active and passive versions of the same sentence.
Lanna and Jo, you believe (correct me if I'm wrong), that Jesus did not create all things.
Lanna and Jo say (correct me if I'm wrong):
"Jesus did not create all things."
You may believe he is the instrument or tool by which they were created, but you don't believe that he created all things.
So let's compare notes between you and the Bible:
"by him all things were created...all things were created by him and for him."
-Colossians 1:16 (twice in the same verse!)
Which voice is this in? If you've been paying attention, it's clearly in the passive voice. Every sentence in passive voice can be put into active voice easily. I'll show you:
The ball was thrown by the boy. (passive)
The boy threw the ball. (active)
"All things were created by him..." (passive)
He created all things. (active)
-Colossians 1:16 (TWICE!!!)
Lanna and Jo say:
"He did not create all things."
The Bible says:
"He created all things." - Col. 1:16
Thank you!
"The holy spirit is not God, but is his tool."--Jo and Lanna
This statement causes me to think that you are impersonalizing the Holy Spirit again by calling HIM a "tool."
Now, I've already shown (and could continue to show) through Scriptures that the Holy Spirit is a distinct personal Person--HE IS A HE!!!
Therefore, saying that the Spirit is a "tool" used by God--"a spirit like that of happiness or sadness"--is completely false, and in light of Scripture, utterly ridiculous.
The next question then is this: since the Holy Spirit is a distinct person, is He God?
I don't have time to answer that right now, but I will try to soon.
By the way, I noticed that you all did not capitalize the Holy Spirit: "The holy spirit is not God, but is his tool."
That's the same thing Jehovah's Witnesses do in their slaughtered and twisted version of the Bible purposed to remove references to Jesus' deity and to the personhood of the Holy Spirit.
Please tell: what version of the Bible do you use? And,
Where are you getting your doctrinal dogma--other than from yourselves?
"Why can't God be two places at once?" --Austin
Austin hits the nail on the head here. God is both omnipotent and omnipresent: could He be in the grave and elsewhere simultaneously? I think so. But also think about what I said about Jesus' body being what was dead.
Wowwy,
Read what your saying and what I said together. You are asking questions that are already answered for you.
Like your post here:
You say
Jesus + God = one
When did I say that? I didn't. But I did quote a Bible verse (John 10:30) that says "I and the Father are one" - Jesus
So you aren't criticizing my math skills, you're criticizing Jesus' math skills.
Your statement should be revised from:
You say
Jesus + God = one
To:
Jesus says
Jesus + Father = one
____________________________
WE said that they are one in partnership. God works through his son.
Like Jo and I are one with our music playing. Or a basketball team is one (as a TEAM)
______________________Another post of yours:
Is the creator the creation? Is the Father the son?
The way you wrote that shows that you believe the following:
1. The creator is the Father.
2. The creation is the son.
Therefore, you believe that the son was created.
Was he?
"In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth."
-Genesis 1:1
Okay doke, What is your point? What does this have to do with God and Jesus being separate things? God did not sleep with Mary. Maybe he use the Holy spirit as a tool? Is that what you said? Whatever your trying to say, maybe.
Oh, and might I remind you, the Trinity was started by the Catholics. It's true, I have proof.
_____________________
Answer my question about God praying to God, if Jesus is God.
________________________
Kingdom can't prove his scripture means what he says, not that it's really scripture.
Now, read our post again and again until your repeated questions are answered.
Your Bible is dusty.
I'm not saying your scripture is false, I'm saying your idea of meaning is way off.
Jo has been doing an HUGE study on Spirits, and will post soon....
Lanna
P.S. You guys need to cool off and relax. Look at what I said from every perspective. Maybe I word things funny. You just asked me the questions I just answered.
Lanna, clearly you are not reading my posts. John 1:14 proves John 1:1 means what I say it means. I repeat:
_______________________________
"And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth." (John 1:14)
So, the Word was God, and the Word BECAME FLESH. Who was the Word? That's right: Jesus.
________________________________
"Maybe he use the Holy spirit as a tool?" --Lanna
So, are you saying again that the Holy Spirit is not a Person, but rather impersonal? Because, if you are, allow me to repeat myself:
_________________________________
The Holy Spirit is a Spirit LIKE GOD IS A SPIRIT. The "spirits" you speak of are just feelings...that is not what the Holy Spirit is confined to.
The Holy Spirit is a Person: Personal Attributes.
The Holy Spirit Helps: John 14:16, 26 ; Romans 8:26.
The Holy Spirit Glorifies: John 16:14
The Holy Spirit Can Be Known: John 14:17
The Holy Spirit Gives Abilities: Acts 2:4 ; 1 Corinthians 12:7-11
The Holy Spirit Referred to as "He": John 15:26 ; 16:7, 8, 13
The Holy Spirit Loves: Romans 15:30
The Holy Spirit Guides: John 16:13
The Holy Spirit Comforts: John 14:26
The Holy Spirit Teaches: Luke 12:12 ; John 14: 26
The Holy Spirit Reminds: John 14:26
The Holy Spirit Bears Witness: John 15:26 ; Acts 5:32 ; Romans 8:16
The Holy Spirit Hears: John 16:13
("School of Biblical Evangelism" By: Ray Comfort & Kirk Cameron)
Need I go on? I can, but I think the point is made that the Holy Spirit is not as you describe HIM (He's a Him, after all! The Bible says so!)
I encourage you to look up all these passages.
___________________________________
"Oh, and might I remind you, the Trinity was started by the Catholics. It's true, I have proof." --Lanna
Even if the Trinity in name was started by the Catholics, and even if they've twisted it from what orthodox Christianity now says (I'm not sure if they have or not), Jesus' deity, the Holy Spirit's personhood, and the Godhead are all clearly laid down in Scripture.
"Your Bible is dusty. " --Lanna
Wow, gotta love the "No you" comeback. The facts are this, Lanna:
1.) Austin and I have posted countless Scriptures. You, on the other hand, if not copying a statement of mine or Austin's to reply to, have posted approximately one Scripture reference, and it doesn't even prove what you were trying to prove.
2.) Austin and I have posted many Scriptures proving the deity of Christ and the personhood of the Holy Spirit, but you just fly by them with the excuse of "I have limited time on the computer" and continue to re-post your beliefs without a good, sound, biblical defense of them.
"You are asking questions that are already answered for you."--Lanna
Here are questions you haven't answered:
Why can't God be two places at once, when He's omniscient? Could He be in the grave and elsewhere simultaneously? I think so. But also think about what I said about Jesus' body being what was dead.
What version of the Bible do you use?
Where are you getting your doctrinal dogma--other than from yourselves?
What don't you understand about "one in nature, essence, rank," but distinct in person and roles?
And, then of course, there are the answers you have yet (and ultimately cannot satisfactorily) provide that explain away the verses that show plainer than the light of day that Jesus is God and the Holy Spirit is personal.
"You guys need to cool off and relax." --Lanna
I know me and Austin are intense, but it is because we are very concerned about your beliefs, and we know that your beliefs don't stack up to the Bible.
Here's a couple reasons to have concern:
"So at the name of Jesus every knee will bow, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and that every tongue will confess that JESUS CHRIST IS LORD, to the glory of God the Father." (Philippians 2:10)
"...whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him..." (Matthew 12:32)
Now, some say that is a sin that could only be committed when Jesus was still alive. Some say that it means to reject the gift of salvation and die in your sins. But, recognize that you are essentially denying that the Holy Spirit exists as He actually does.
I can't write anymore now. I will try to tomorrow or sometime soon.
Okay,
I suppose God could be in two different places. Sorry I used that.
BUT, almost all your scripture is answered. THEY WORK IN PARTNERSHIP!!!!!
AND you did not asnwer why Jesus prayed to God if he was God.
Jo wanted to say that God admitted to being selfish.
Jesus was humble. What about that. Your scripture talks about partnership.
______________
kingdom,
"So at the name of Jesus every knee will bow, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and that every tongue will confess that JESUS CHRIST IS LORD, to the glory of God the Father." (Philippians 2:10)
Yes, note: "TO THE GLORY OF GORD THE FATHER"
Does this not mean that God works through him.
What if you look up the words "God" and "Lord."
What if we read it like this:
"So at the name of Jesus every knee will bow, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and that every tongue will confess that JESUS CHRIST IS LORD, to the glory of YHWH the FATHER." (Philippians 2:10)
You never answered how Jesus could be his own father.
AND you did not add a very important part to thata scripture...Philippians 2:9
Read that with the rest of your scripture. No, read that whole scripture. Now is that the act of one person?
I didn't say the Holy Spirit is just a tool. I'm sorry, I thought I said "USED AS A TOOL."
I care about you guys, and I know that I can not change your mind compleatly. I just want to make you think about what I am saying and maybe take some of it to heart. I understand your views and I see them (sorry to say this) but silly. Your not listening to my words. I took yours and though about it in a "If it was true" way. Please take to mind that we don't know who is right. My family and other familys I know believe that the scripture means this and you and your family believes it that way. Only God knows who is right, if anyone. How can we so boldly say that the other is wrong. I for one am very stubbon. You are too. That can be a good thing. Please, try putting yourself in my shoes as I have yours.
Lanna
My keys get stuck sometimes.
Oh, and might I remind you, the Trinity was started by the Catholics. It's true, I have proof.
HOW MANY DIFFERENT WAYS CAN I SAY IT!!! I AM NOT DEFENDING THE TRINITY!!!
Sorry, but after I've said that about ten times, you still continue to bring it up, like a broken record or something.
Also, your "They're in partnership" approach does not apply to every scripture we've listed - not even close.
I have a little assignment for you. Explain each of these Scriptures (I'm copying them directly out of one of KA's old posts that you've managed to ignore):
John 20:28
"Thomas answered and said to Him, 'My LORD and my GOD!'"
Jesus did not rebuke Thomas for saying this.
Titus 2:13
"...our GREAT GOD and Savior, Christ Jesus..."
2 Peter 1:1
"...our GOD and Savior, Jesus Christ..."
Matthew 1:23
"Behold, the virgin shall be with Child and shall bear a Son, and they shall call His name IMMANUEL, WHICH TRANSLATED MEANS, 'GOD WITH US.'"
John 5:18
"For this reason therefore the Jews werre seeking all the more to kill Him, because He not only was breaking the Sabbath, but also was calling God His own Father, making HIMSELF EQUAL WITH GOD."
Explain each of them individually.
Now then, I have a few points to make about the Catholics, Constantine, and the doctrine of Jesus' deity.
1. Nowadays, we have many things against the Catholics and their false beliefs, but the church wasn't always as corrupt as it was in the Middle Ages. The Catholic church was the original church long before it was legal to be a Christian. This "organization" went astray later, but it originally represented the true Church.
2. The Trinity doctrine came as a reaction to the Arian heresy. Arius preached that Jesus was not God. Christians knew full well that he had been held to be God from day one, since the time of Jesus and the Apostles. So they voted to call Arius' teachings heresy. There are only a few sects and cults around today who still hold to his belief - Jehovah's Witnesses, Unitarian Universalists, Mormons, etc.
3. Modern "wisdom" says that Constantine and his bishops decided what would be Christian doctrine and what would not be, and their decision is what we're basing out beliefs on today.
Do you know where this wisdom comes from? Well, today it's most popular through Dan Brown's The DaVinci Code.
4. Real History proves point #3 false.
5. Constantine's council also decided on what books were Scripture, so maybe you should throw out your Bible and start reading the Gnostic gospels instead.
6. Jesus' divinity has been taught since the time of Jesus and the Apostles. We have writings of Christians who lived in the very next generation after the Apostles. These writings clearly show that the Christian belief from day one was that Jesus is indeed God.
Please take to mind that we don't know who is right.
...
Only God knows who is right, if anyone. How can we so boldly say that the other is wrong.
This sounds very familiar. Oh yeah, this argument is frequently used against Christians.
Many non-Christians ask these same questions about how we know that Christianity is the truth.
Is Jesus the truth? How can we be so sure?
Well, I'm sure. I think you're sure too. Problem solved.
The Bible says it, so I believe it. You don't. So we do know who is right, if we both consider the Bible accurate.
My family and other familys I know believe that the scripture means this and you and your family believes it that way.
Actually, billions of Christians throughout 2000 years have held my interpretation, and a few small heretical sects and cults (such as Jehovah's Witnesses) have held your interpretation. You act as though there was a 50-50 divide on the subject. There is not.
If two interpretations of the same piece of literature contradict, then at least one must be wrong. I suggest examining the Bible in an honest, unbiased manner. I have seen the overwhelming evidence that Jesus is God, and I have accepted that, even though it's difficult to understand.
Do you know the difference between exegesis and eisegesis? Exegesis is when you read everything the Bible has to say on a certain subject, and form your opinion based on what it says. Eisegesis is when you decide what you believe, and then try to explain the verses in such a way that they support your beliefs.
You are reading your beliefs into the Bible; I am forming my beliefs based on the Bible.
Lanna,
Perhaps it's a minor detail, but your quote of Philippians 2:10 is false.
It does NOT say "YHWH the Father".
First of all, YHWH only exists in Hebrew - it NEVER appears in Greek, which means it NEVER appears in the New Testament.
Second of all, "Lord" was the word they used to pronounce YHWH and to write it in Greek. So for your interpretation to be correct, it would have to read, "Lord the Father."
It does not read "Lord the Father", it reads "God the Father". The Greek word for God was used instead of Hebrew Elohim, not Hebrew YHWH.
Your version of this Scripture, in Greek, would read like this:
"...confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of Lord the Father."
Two facts that could be drawn from this non-scripture:
1. Jesus Christ is Lord.
2. Lord is the Father.
How embarrasing for you, Lanna. Your false writing of this Scripture actually says that Jesus is God, which I believe anyway, but you have denied!
So why did you put in YHWH? Allow me to guess. You believe that we should call him by his real name a little more, right? So do the Jehovah's Witnesses. You know, Lanna, your beliefs are beginning to sound more and more like theirs everyday.
I think I have solved your church problem. Locate a Kingdom Hall immediately, and check it out. You'll like them a lot, I think.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but you girls believe that the early church (Jesus, the Apostles, and the next couple generations) held that Jesus was not God. You believe that the teaching the Jesus is God came later, probably from the Catholics, right? Well, I'm going to give you some quotes from the writings of the people who knew the Apostles personally!
Jesus was born around 4 BC. His crucifixion occured somewhere between 30 and 34 BC. The Apostle who lived the longest was John, who lived until at least 95 AD. The Apostles had disciples who lived until at least 150 AD. Any of these people could have refuted any "false" doctrine that Jesus was God. Did such doctrine exist at that time? Did the Apostles or their disciples teach it or rebuke it? Well, here you go:
* Polycarp (A.D. 69-155), bishop of Smyrna, was a disciple of the apostle John. He wrote: Now may the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, and the eternal High Priest Himself, the (Son of] God Jesus Christ, build you up in faith . . ."2
* Ignatius (died c. A.D. 110), head of the church at Antioch, was a contemporary of Polycarp, Clement, and Barnabas, and was martyred in the Colosseum In his Epistle to the Ephesians, he wrote of Christ as ' 'Our God, Jesus Christ. ' '3
In another letter Ignatius admonished Polycarp to ' 'await Him that is above every season, the Eternal, The Invisible, who become visible for our soke... who suffered for our sake.' '
To the above he added in correspondence to the Smyrneans that "... if they believe not in the blood of Christ, (who is God), judgment awaiteth them also."
The following excerpts are from Kirsopp Lake.'
Ignatius to the Ephesians i, greeting – " . Jesus Christ our God
Ignatius to the Ephesians i.1 – ''... by the blood of God
Ignatius to the Ephesians vii.2 – ''... who is God in man... ''
Ignatius to the Ephesians xvii.2 – ".. received knowledge of God, that is, Jesus Christ' '
Ignatius to the Ephesians xviii.2 – For our God, Jesus the Christ,... "
Ignatius to the Ephesians xix.3 – "... for God was manifest as man
Ignatius to the Magnesians xi.1 – ".. Christ, who was from eternity with the Father... "
Ignatius to the Magnesians xiii.2 – Jesus Christ was subject to the Father.''
Ignatius to the Trallians vii.1 –"... from God, from Jesus Christ... "
Ignatius to the Romans, greeting – ''Jesus Christ, our God' ' (twice)
Ignatius to the Romans iii.3 – ° ... Our God, Jesus Christ."
Ignatius to the Romans vi.3 – ''... suffer me to follow the example of the Passion of my God. "
Ignatius to the Smyrneans i.i – Jesus Christ, the God
Ignatius to Polycarp viii.3 – "... our God, Jesus Christ. "
Epistle of Barnabas vii.2 – "Son of God, though he was the Lord
Researcher and author John Weldon has noted that the ".. fact that Ignatius was not rebuked or branded as heretic by any of the people or churches he sent letters to shows that the early church, long before A.D. 115, universally accepted the deity of Christ. "
* Irenaeus (C.A.D.. 125-200), a disciple of Polycarp, explained in Against Heresies (4.10) how Christ was often seen by Moses and that it was Christ who spoke from the burning bush. lrenaeus continued elaborating on Christ's relationship to God the Father: "For with Him were always present the Word and Wisdom the Son and the Spirit, by whom and in whom freely and spontaneously, He mode all things, to whom also He speaks, saying, 'Let us make man after our image and likeness.''8
* Justin Martyr (A.D. 110-166), an apologist who defended the faith in a very scholarly manner, acknowledged, "I have often said, often enough, that when My God says, 'God went up from Abraham ' or 'the Lord spake unto Moses, ' and 'the Lord came down to see the tower which the sons of men had built, ' or 'God shut Noah within the Ark, ' you must not imagine that the unbegotten God himself went down or went up anywhere. For the ineffable Father and Lord of all neither comes anywhere, nor walks, nor sleeps, nor rises up. '
Abraham and Isaac and Jacob saw not the ineffable Lord, but God, His Son, ''who was also fire when He spoke with Moses from the bush'' (Dialogues, cxxxvii). He continued: "Our Christ conversed with Moses under the appearance of fire from a bush." It was not the Father of the universe who thus spoke to Moses; but ' 'Jesus the Christ, ' ' ' 'the Angel and Apostle," " who is also God," yea the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob," and "the I am that I am'' (First Apology, lxii; lxiii).
* Clement (died c. A.D. 101), bishop of Rome, in Didache, (chapter 16), applies to our Lord a quotation from Zechariah (14:5), "The Lord shall come and all the saints with Him' ', and in the fourteenth chapter refers to Him two quotations loosely drawn from Malachi 1:11, 14, and likewise referring to Jehovah. I Clement presents "our Lord Jesus Christ, the sceptre of the majesty of God' ' (xvi), as the Lord whom Malachi expected to come suddenly to His temple (xxiii), who had spoken through the Holy Ghost already in the Old Testament.
From http://www.greatcom.org/resources/jesus_and_his_diety/chap06/default.htm
I meant that Jesus was died between 30 and 34 AD, not BC.
"I took yours and though about it in a "If it was true" way." --Lanna
I don't see how you could have when you have stated that you haven't had time to read all of our comments and you have yet to even try to explain away the verses we have presented. To quote Austin: "...your "They're in partnership" approach does not apply to every scripture we've listed - not even close."
"Only God knows who is right, if anyone." --Lanna
God lets us know who is "right" by His Word.
"How can we so boldly say that the other is wrong." --Lanna
Because the Bible makes it clear who is right and who is wrong.
You know, Lanna, those statements are starting to make you sound like a Unitarian Universalist. Are you?
"I for one am very stubbon. You are too. That can be a good thing." -- Lanna
I do not consider myself stubborn, because that implies that I am holding to a position even when it is shown false or the evidence is against it. That is not the case. I steadfastly defend the Bible--which says clearly such things as Jesus is God--but I try not to stubbornly defend my personal beliefs not backed up by the Bible. That is what you are doing.
By the way, Lanna, I admit that I sometimes have a hard time speaking the truth in love with gentleness, but I hope you can forgive me for that and see through that to see the truth of what I am--what the BIBLE is--saying.
Don't stop me yet! I could go on all day (in love):
About the personality and Deity of the Holy Spirit:
I think we should examine the first verse in which the Bible mentions the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit in the NT is frequently called the Spirit of God. Where is this Spirit of God first mentioned.
Pretty early - Genesis 1:2!!!
"The earth was formless and void, and darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was moving over the surface of the waters."
-Genesis 1:2 (NASB)
If the Spirit of God is just a feeling or force that God gives humans to drive them, then what exactly was it doing over the surface of the waters before any living thing had been created?
By the way, spirit (Hebrew Ruach) means "breath". It refers to someone's breath and life. A person is not alive without their spirit (breath).
"Then the LORD God formed man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being."
-Genesis 2:7 (NASB)
Most translations translate "breath" as "spirit", and "being" as "soul". Thankfully, the NASB translates them literally here so we can see what they really mean.
So the "Breath of God" refers to his life. Our "spirit" is our breath and life. God's Spirit (the Spirit of God/Holy Spirit) is his breath and life.
""So at the name of Jesus every knee will bow, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and that every tongue will confess that JESUS CHRIST IS LORD, to the glory of YHWH the FATHER." (Philippians 2:10)" --Lanna
What Austin says about this is very interesting. Also, though, I find it ironic that you would use YHWH as your point-maker, when Jesus equates Himself to YHWH.
John 8:58
"Jesus said to them, 'Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.'"
"Now is that the act of one person?" --Lanna
I never claimed it was. I've been saying all along that God the Son and God the Father are distinct persons, yet both God--one God--being one in nature, essence, rank, goals, etc..
"Jo wanted to say that God admitted to being selfish." --Lanna
God is a jealous God. But since Jesus, the Holy Spirit, and the Father are One God (being one in nature, essence, ...) this does not pose a problem. God's jealousy resonates towards pagan false gods, not towards one Person or another of the Godhead. Consider this:
_______________________________
God is worshiped. Only God can be rightly worshiped. "For you shall worship no other god: for the Lord,, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God" (Exodus 34: 14). Whenever a man was worshiping another man, he was immediately rebuked....Even the angels refuse worship of men....
Christ is worshiped. He was worshiped by the wise men: "And when they were come into the house, they saw the young Child with Mary His mother, and fell down, and worshiped Him" (Matthew 2:11)....
He was worshiped by the angels: "And again, when He brought in the first begotten into the world, He says, "And let all the angels of God worship him" (Hebrews 1:6).
There are many other examples of people worshiping Christ. At no time did He rebuke them. He accepted their worship.
____________________________
(Adapted from: "School of Biblical Evangelism")
"You never answered how Jesus could be his own father." --Lanna
I don't have to, because I've been saying all along that the Father and the Son are distinct Persons, but One God.
"My family and other familys I know believe that the scripture means this and you and your family believes it that way." --Lanna
First of all, Austin addressed this well. It's not exactly a balanced scale here. The vast majority of Christians--INCLUDING THE APOSTLES AND EARLY CHRISTIANS--believe(d) in the deity of Christ and the personhood of the Holy Spirit. Only a few small sects, cults, and selections of people denied these two points.
Secondly, it's time for you to take your own faith by the horns, Lanna. I know God has to reveal the truth to you (Matthew 16:13-17), but He is giving you a spectacular opportunity right here: two sincere Christian males devoting hours of their time to lay down God's Word clearly for you to see the truth. Don't let that go lightly, just because your parents--who, your dad, unless my memory fails me, does not oft pick up His Bible, at least until recently-- siblings, neighbors, and friends believe something different, therefore causing you to think "who can tell with certainty anyway." I'm not disrespecting your father or friends and family, I'm just saying that the truth is more important than giving them too much credibility at face value. Search out the truth. God is giving you that chance right now. Respect your family's views, but realize that God might want to use you to witness to your family (and friends) with the truth that Austin and I are trying to show you now.
"AND you did not asnwer why Jesus prayed to God if he was God...Jesus was humble. What about that." --Lanna
This is complicated and hard to explain, but I will try to formulate a good answer soon.
The purpose for Jesus' humility is explained very well in Isaiah 53 and Philippians 2. As for why he prayed to God, the short answer (there is a much longer, more complete answer) is that this was necessary for the sake of the humility mentioned in the Scriptures above.
Let me ask you this: Could God truly become one of us and experience everything we experience (without sinning), if he kept and demonstrated every one of his Godly abilities while doing so? Think of all that God can do! If he came as a man to identify with us, would he need to limit himself to do so? Of course.
He prayed to God because he had humbled himself as a man. God never stopped being there invisibly even when he manifested himself in the flesh. To access his powers, Jesus would need to "tap into" God the Father, because he had limited himself by becoming a man, causing himself to depend upon the Father.
I know that seems far-fetched, but you must consider this: If we throw it all out and just say that Jesus is not God, then we must go against everything that Scripture says on the subject and everything that Jesus, the Apostles, their disciples, and their disciples' disciples said on the subject.
We can either accept a teaching, albeit confusing, taught in the Bible, or we can reject the Bible's instrutions so our brains won't hurt. I've made my choice.
"They will dash you to the ground, you and the children within your walls. They will not leave one stone on another, because you did not recognize the time of God's coming to you."
-Jesus, Luke 19:44 (NIV)
Wait a minute! The time of whose coming to you? The time of...God's coming to you?! GASP!
Jo,
Congrats on so many comments! I've never gotten this many. The most I ever got was 64.
Hypostasis
Remember when I said that maybe God is so above us that even his attributes are personified, and are still completely him? Well, I made that up myself, but I just discovered that there are other people who are already teaching exactly that!
Actually, if you read the Bible, there are many examples of this. Wisdom and Logos are the best examples. This website claims rather convincingly that those two are the same. Please click on the link at the beginning of this comment. It's an excellent read!
You are on at the same time.
Freekish. I know what you're doing right now.
I know what you're doing too!
heh, I'm about to read the new comments on your spirit post. Oh, and nice pic!
Freekish.
I'm telling you! We're gonna get to 100!!! Ooooo!!!
I hope that by 100, you will finally believe all the Bible verses we've provided.
______________________Another post of yours:
Is the creator the creation? Is the Father the son?
The way you wrote that shows that you believe the following:
1. The creator is the Father.
2. The creation is the son.
Therefore, you believe that the son was created.
Was he?
"In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth."
-Genesis 1:1
Okay doke, What is your point? What does this have to do with God and Jesus being separate things? God did not sleep with Mary. Maybe he use the Holy spirit as a tool? Is that what you said? Whatever your trying to say, maybe.
When I posted that Scripture, I did not intend it to be read without the ones under it. The Scriptures I provided combine to prove my point. The first one does not prove my point by itself, which is why you're confused. Here are the three Scriptues again. Read them TOGETHER:
"In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth."
-Genesis 1:1
"In the beginning was the Word [Jesus, as shown in John 1:14], and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."
-John 1:1
"All things came into being through Him [Jesus], and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being."
-John 1:3
These Scriptures combine to prove that the Word (logos} was not created - it is eternal.
But is the Logos Jesus? Yes, as this next Scripture from the same chapter proves beyond shadow of a doubt:
"And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth."
-John 1:14 (NASB)
Points from John 1:
1. The Word is God (John 1:1)
2. The Word is the Creator of everything. (John 1:3, Paul's writings also show that Jesus created everything, as we've shown)
3. The Word became flesh, dwelt among us, and is the only begotten son. (John 1:14) Jesus became flesh, dwelt among us, and is the only begotten son; therefore, the Word is Jesus.
4. Since the Word is Jesus (point 3) and the Word is God (point 1), then Jesus is God.
Okay, you know what,I tierd of spending my whole morning on here arguing about something thats not going to do us any good to argue about. SORRY, but I'm not going to sit here and listen to you try to change my mind. This is all wrong. I'm sorry if I ever pushed you into feeling that you needed to help me with my views on this touchy subject. I started to give you my thoughts and it did no good.
I hope you don't waste anymore time here as I won't...
I care about this group's friendship more then I care about what the difference is in our belief on Trinity.
Lanna
Visit Underneath9.blogspot.com again:)
97...
<-98...
<-99...
One-hundered-one comments!!!
(beat that austin, we are so good:))
I started to give you my thoughts and it did no good.
I gave you dozens of Bible verses, and it did no good, so I win.
I care about this group's friendship more then I care about what the difference is in our belief on Trinity.
We both agree that God is not a trinity. Can you please stop talking about trinities?
You are dodging the topic. We give you scriptures in support of Jesus' Deity, and you counter with criticisms of the trinity.
Austin: Jello is green.
Lanna: No, pudding is purple!
I started to give you my thoughts and it did no good.
I gave you dozens of Bible verses, and it did no good, so I win.
I care about this group's friendship more then I care about what the difference is in our belief on Trinity.
We both agree that God is not a trinity. Can you please stop talking about trinities?
You are dodging the topic. We give you scriptures in support of Jesus' Deity, and you counter with criticisms of the trinity.
I say, "Jesus is God". Scripture. Scripture. Scripture.
You say, "The Trinity is stupid."
I say, "Who said anything about trinities? Jesus is God!" Scripture. Scripture. Scripture.
You say, "The Trinity is stupid!"
Austin: Ice cream is delicious.
Lanna: No, Mars is the fourth planet from the sun!
MY GOSH!!!!
I have my own ideas of what the scripture means, now lets get off this touchy subject! Please. It does not matter anymore. You are trying to get me to saw something about it. I refuse.
What kind of pudding?
I know what your doing!
It reads clearly. You don't believe it.
(Jo's blog won't let me delete my extra comment!)
It reads clearly. You don't believe it.
(Jo's blog won't let me delete my extra comment!)
I have my own ideas of what the scripture means,
You gave a different interpretation for about two of our Scriptures. And you picked the unclear ones.
I would be very grateful if you would interpret these for me (you know, to show me the truth):
"For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form,"
-Colossians 2:9 (NASB)
"...our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus,"
-Titus 2:13 (NASB)
"...our God and Savior, Jesus Christ:"
-2 Peter 1:1 (NASB)
Please explain these to me before we leave this discussion.
Please explain how "the Word (logos) was God" (John 1:1) means "The Word was not God".
"I started to give you my thoughts and it did no good." --Lanna
Did no good, Lanna? I (and I'm sure, Austin, too) am as convinced as ever that Jesus is God and the Holy Spirit is personal. I think that is a lot of good. I think what you mean is that it didn't convince us. I am quite thankful you didn't persuade us from the truth.
And Austin is right: we weren't giving you OUR thoughts; we were trying to tell you the truth as CLEARLY laid down in the Bible. I, and I'm sure Austin was doing this to, was doing this for YOUR good, not simply to win some type of debate. If that's all I got, without convincing you, that would be an extreme let down.
"I care about this group's friendship more then I care about what the difference is in our belief on Trinity." --Lanna
I care more about your spiritual state than any cyber friendship. I'm not so sure that this is not an issue of salvation:
"...that if you confess with your mouth Jesus AS LORD, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved..." (Romans 10:9)
"I tierd of spending my whole morning on here arguing about something thats not going to do us any good to argue about. SORRY, but I'm not going to sit here and listen to you try to change my mind." --Lanna
So, in a nutshell, you would rather break off the discussion so that you can blissfully continue to believe as you do, rather than be open to the truth--even if it is in contrast to what your parents and friends believe. Now isn't that just the easy way out.
Lanna:(paraphrase) I don't care about all this evidence to the contrary of what I believe and I don't care about how vital this issue may be, I'm tired of it, and I want to believe what I want to believe, and you guys can stop wasting your time cause I'm not talking about it anymore.
"I have my own ideas of what the scripture means..." --Lanna
Oh, wow, so that just makes our "ideas" equal? I don't think so. What's God's idea? That's what's important. And Austin and I are laying down His Word for you.
Allow me to show you an example of someone's "ideas" of Scripture:
Genesis 1:1 "In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth."
Someone's own ideas: Well, it wasn't in the beginning, and this verse isn't really talking about God, and He didn't create, and it really has nothing to do with the heavens and the earth."
BYE.
Lanna
Lanna,
All I asked was for you to give me your interpretation of those three verses before we leave this discussion. If you really believe the truth, then why can't you do that?
We're done.
Happy New Year.
So is this the "forfeit-before-you-lose" method, or what?
We were trying to help you, and now you are running away from the truth, like we are attacking you or something. You can't defend your beliefs in light of Scripture, so you just cut off the debate. That saddens me, because now you handcuff us from showing you the truth, because you don't want to see it. Therefore, you blind yourself, saying, "We're done talking about this."
I sincerely hope you reconsider.
Kingdom Advancer,
It is nice to know that you care, but that is not why I cut off the argument. It's not right to argue about ths with others. It doesn't matter, we aren't changing anyone's mind.
Drop the subject becuase you guys seem to be getting agressive!! It's not good to pervoke.
Just read Lanna's comments, from the beginning until now, and you will see who got "agressive" first.
Austin,
I wasn't talking about Lanna. I was talking about you. My mom didn't like what you said about our Bibles being dusty.
Forgive me. The conversation went something like this: We provided Bible verses. Lanna attacked us (without Bible verses). We provided more, and you (mostly your sister) continued to criticize (without Bible verses). Then you just gave up and told us to go away. I got the impression you weren't willing to change your position under any circumstances, even if the Bible proved it wrong.
I'm just worried that you give too much credence to pamphlets and individual modern writers. You cannot shape your beliefs on Ben Williams. He didn't live when Jesus walked the earth. Often times when we read something, we read as if everything we're reading is fact. But much of what people write if false. Some of Ben Williams' writings are guitly of this. Please, try considering the Bible verses we've provided. We can stop discussing if you want, but at least continue to read what's already been posted, and reconsider your opinions.
Don't worry, Austin, we really don't believe all of what Ben Williams says. He doesn't know everything, and he is a sinner just like the rest of us.
If I get a chance, I will honestly try reading your scriptures. (You may have to rimind me every once in awhile, incase I forget. I will let you know when I read them). Lanna and I read a few of your scriptures and we think that is means something other than what you're saying.
I hope your new year is still going well...
Jo
Tell you what:
We can drop this discussion, if I have your word that you'll think through this prayerfully and honestly. I will soon post a list of verses on my blog that I don't think you can interpret any other way, and you can read those and think about how your alternative interpretation does (or does not) fit with those verses. I'll just write the verses and nothing else ('cept an intro paragraph letting my other readers know what they verses are there to show) so that there will be no "provoking" - just the Bible. You can read those when you get a chance. I'll let you know when I post them.
Sounds good to me.
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